Transcript Translit עברית
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0:00 a great zechus baruch Hashem to be able to begin another week together, begin by thanking our sponsors for this morning's shiur. 0:24 To thank our Talmud Torah sponsors for the month of Tammuz, Abba Ne'elanu L'tova, Yonit and Abby Romm for dedicating over shiurim drashos this month in the zechus of a refuah sheleima for Eliezer ben Elisheva, Daniela bat Sheva, Pavlov Eretz Yisrael for dedicating over shiurim drashos this month for the third yahrtzeit of רב שלמה בשלמה בן יהודה אריה 0:45 zichrono livracha. And Yossi Malca Cohn for dedicating over shiurim drashos this month in memory of Rabbi Doctor Nachum Schorr, הרב נחום בן חיים יהושע הלוי zichrono livracha. 0:56 A week of learning sponsored the Miller and Rosen families l'ilui nishmas Doctor Joseph Miller, חיים יוסף בן ראובן zichrono livracha. 1:06 And our Daf Yomi sponsors for today, Ayal and Sarah Steinberg in the zechus of continued health for שולמית חנה בת סושה for an ultimate refuah sheleima. 1:15 Also just while he's here, we wish our chaver Brian Pen a mazel tov on the engagement of his daughter Liora Tizvei Lions from Kochav Yaakov. Mazel tov, mazel tov. 1:26 שיזכו אם ירצה השם to walk the kallah down to the chuppah b'shaa tova u'mutzlachas and to build a binyan adei ad עד מאה ועשרים שנים טובות. 1:34 We hope that in the merit of our Talmud Torah all of the neshamos have an aliya, the families a nechama, all those who need a refuah sheleima together with kol cholei Yisrael. Be'ezras Hashem HaKadosh Baruch Hu should look after our brothers and sisters in Eretz Yisrael, should our holy soldiers 1:44 be successful be'chol maasei yadeihem and we should have a week of bracha, yeshua, and nechama for all of Klal Yisrael. 1:51 But with that let us begin and a special welcome to my favorite talmid Avram Plonker who is here baruch Hashem hiding behind the... 1:58 I'll embarrass him every week by singling him out but what a great way to start baruch Hashem every week with the youngest member of our Daf Yomi chabura. 2:06 Incredible, incredible. All right but with that let us begin. 2:09 Today's daf is ayin gimmel seventy-three and because I didn't give the shiur yesterday we actually covered a lot of ground, baruch Hashem. 2:15 So my son Avram did a great job getting us to the two dots on עין גמל עמוד אלף seventy-three A which is where we are picking off. 2:26 Says the Gemara quoting from the mishna, וחכמים אומרים מגע טריפה שחוטה. 2:29 But let's remember again just to orient ourselves a bit, we had a mishna, a very long mishna that began on the bottom of עין בית עמוד אלף seventy-two A and went on to עין בית עמוד בית. 2:42 In that mishna, the second case in the mishna was the following case: that halacha lema'aseh you have an animal once again with an extended foreleg, all right? 2:51 So there's a leg sticking out, so what happens? 2:53 In case number two is you shechted the mother and then afterwards you went ahead and you detached the limb. 2:59 So just the sequence of events is very important over here. 3:03 Fetus extended its limb outside of the womb, so that limb is out there hanging out there. 3:07 Shecht the mother and then cut off the limb. 3:10 So the shaila is what is the status of the limb in that situation? 3:14 So this was the machlokes case. 3:16 Tanna Kamma said, habasar tzari, Rabbi Meir said, habasar maga neveila. 3:21 Ultimately again Rabbi Meir looks at that dangling limb as neveila. 3:25 As just animal carcass and therefore by definition conveys tumah to the rest of the fetus, even though the fetus normally itself would have been permitted with the shechita of the mother, but essentially because that dangling limb, since that limb was 3:43 out there, sorry, one more time. 3:47 Fetus extends the limb while the mother is still alive, you then shecht the mother. 3:51 Rabbi Meir says that limb is now neveila, dangling limb is neveila, and because it's touching the rest of the fetus which is still in utero, it is metamei, it conveys tumah to the rest of the fetus. 4:01 That's Rabbi Meir. The Chachamim say interestingly enough, maga treifa shechuta. 4:06 That they hold that the limb has the status of treifa shechuta. 4:12 Now again we've seen this before, treifa shechuta means ultimately an animal that's a treifa. 4:17 Animal that's a treifa means it has some type of condition from which it is going to imminently die. 4:21 Now what's the halacha if you shecht a treifa? 4:24 So again truth is if you shecht a treifa, whether or not you can eat it will possibly depend on what the treifa is, but let's assume you can't eat it, but the idea is that if you shechted it, it's not 4:34 tamei. So the Chachamim are saying that the limb essentially is a treifa shechuta and therefore again the rest of the fetus is touching treifa shechuta. 4:45 Now the problem with that phrase is what's the status of a treifa shechuta? 4:51 It's tahor. So the Chachamim are saying that it's tahor. 4:54 So that's what we have to analyze here a little bit. 4:56 Says the Gemara: The Gemara veha Gemara say מאי קאמר טרפה שחוטה? 5:00 So the Gemara says טרפה שחוטה מי מטמאה? 5:03 So one second, but a treifa shechuta doesn't convey tum'ah. 5:05 If you have an animal that's a treifa and you shecht it, okay you can't eat it, but the whole point or the whole thing that shchita does is shchita will prevent it from conveying tum'ah. 5:17 So when we say that the dangling limb, right the limb on the outside of the like the so-called the extended limb, ultimately has the status of a treifa shechuta, that means it doesn't convey tum'ah. 5:28 To which the Gemara says actually it does in a very specific case in ki de-avuhah de-Shmuel. 5:32 דאמר אבוה דשמואל: טרפה ששחטה מטמאה בקדשים. Okay, so so that actually is an ex- in general the halacha is that if you shecht a treifa, it does not convey tum'ah. 5:43 The only time a shecht-ed treifa conveys tum'ah is when where or when when it comes to kodshim. 5:50 In consecrated situations and even Rashi points out over here, that's a din de-rabbanan. 5:55 That's a so mi-de-rabbanan ultimately again treifa shechuta will convey tum'ah in a case of kodshim but not in any other case. 6:04 Therefore Rabosai if we go back to the Mishnah, effectively what the Chachamim are really saying is that the animal is tahor. 6:09 So really according to the Chachamim, if again animal ex- right fetus extended its foreleg, you then shecht the mother, the status of the extended limb essentially is like a treifa that is shechuta which means you can't eat it, you can't 6:24 eat it, but halacha le-maise it will not convey tum'ah. 6:28 So that's the fundamental machlokes Rabbi Meir and Chachamim. Rabbi Meir will say the extended limb has the status ultimately again of neveila and therefore it will convey tum'ah to the rest of the fetus. 6:38 The Chachamim say no it has the status of treifa shechuta in which case you can't eat it, but halacha le-maise it will not convey tum'ah. 6:46 The only time it would convey tum'ah is when if it happens to be that we're talking about a sacrificial animal, kodshim. 6:53 Okay, so let's go weiter a little bit. 6:55 So the Gemara goes on and says: מה מצינו בטרפה ששחיטתה מטהרתה? 6:58 So according from the Mishnah, So again Rabosai so this is continuing in the logic of the Chachamim. 7:07 So the Chachamim say in the Mishnah, ma matzinu be-treifa, right by a treifa what do we find by treifa? Rabosai, what does shchita accomplish by treifa? 7:15 Let's take a step back. 7:16 What doesn't shchita accomplish by treifa? 7:19 You can't eat it. 7:20 So what does it accomplish by shchita? 7:23 It removes tum'ah. So that's the Mishnah says: מה מצינו בטרפה ששחיטתה מטהרתה? 7:27 So by a treifa when you shecht a treifa the shchita at least takes away the ability for it to convey tum'ah, So the Chachamim will say so too over here in this case when you shecht the mother, again obviously the 7:42 limb is not going to be fit for consumption, but at least it should be like a treifa shechuta and therefore it shouldn't convey tum'ah. 7:50 Now Rabbi Meir responds to that. 7:52 So again we'll get to that in just a moment. 7:54 Says the Gemara Tanya. So what does Rabbi Meir respond? 7:56 So Rabosai, what all the Chachamim are saying is like this: we're going to agree with you that obviously you cannot eat the extended limb, right you can't eat that. 8:04 But don't tell me that it's a neveila. 8:06 It should at least be like a treifa shechuta so that again I can't eat it but it shouldn't convey tum'ah. 8:12 So Tanya, Baraita now says: אמר להם רבי מאיר וכי מי טהרו לאבר זה מידי נבלה? 8:26 So Rabbi Meir responded back. 8:28 Now what would have purified or what would have removed the tum'ah from this eiver from neveila? shchitas imo. 8:35 So Chachamim you're positing that the shchita of the mother should remove tumas neveila from this extended limb, well if the shchita of the mother is going to work like that then I would say: אם כן תתירנו באכילה. 8:47 Then why not take it the whole way through? 8:49 In other words why not say if the shchita of the mother is good enough to say that the extended limb is not a neveila, then why not say that the shchita of the mother is good enough to actually permit it 8:59 for consumption? Right why shouldn't it just be reckoned together with the rest of the fetus and say that again the shchita of the mother permits it for consumption? 9:06 amru lo, so Rabosai so this is going to be a very cryptic exchange that the Gemara is going then clarify. 9:12 So amru lo, the Chachamim said back to Rabbi Meir: הרבה מצלת על שאינו גופה יותר מגופה. 9:23 Sometimes the shchita of the mother has the ability to go ahead and work better on things that are not part of its body than things that are part of its body. 9:33 she-harei shaninu because we have learned again Rabosai that statement doesn't seem to make so much sense. 9:36 she-harei shaninu because we learned: חותך מן העובר שבמעיה מותר באכילה. 9:41 Because what did we learn Rabosai we actually saw this before that if again you reach in utero and cut off a piece of the fetus, ultimately again when you shecht the mother all those detached fetal pieces are still permitted. 9:52 On the other hand מן הטחול מן הכליות, if you cut off a piece of the... 9:56 spleen or you cut off a piece of the kidneys, you grab it, you reach into the animal and cut it off inside the animal, then rabosai remember again that's assur, assur be'achila, why? 10:04 Because remember again what was that treated as? 10:06 Eiver min hachai. Eiver min hachai. So the Gemara says mai kamri, what exactly I don't understand what this exchange is. 10:13 Again rabosai, let's take a step back for just a second. 10:15 What was the initial exchange? 10:17 What do we have? 10:17 Everybody's dealing with the same case. 10:19 Fetus extended its foreleg. 10:21 And again rabosai I'm just using foreleg as the example, it doesn't matter what part of the body. 10:24 Ready? Extended its foreleg. 10:26 Okay, that that foreleg is now dangling outside of the mother. 10:28 You now shecht the mother. 10:30 What is the status of the extended limb? 10:34 So ultimately again, Rabbi Meir will say that's neveila. 10:37 That extended limb is neveila and because it's neveila, obviously it will convey tuma to the rest of the fetus to which it is attached. 10:43 Magga neveila. Okay. Vechachamim say it has the status of treifa shechuta. Treifa shechuta because essentially the shechita of the mother ultimately again makes it into a treifa that is shechuta. 10:55 Everyone agrees you can't eat it, fine. 10:56 So vechachamim say because in the same way that shechita goes ahead and is metaher a treifa, so too shechita will prevent this extended limb from becoming a neveila. 11:08 To which Rabbi Meir responds now in the braisa cited in the Gemara, \"Well wait a second. 11:12 If you're going to tell me that the shechita of the mother works in some way for this extended limb, say that the shechita of the mother permits the extended limb for consumption.\" To which the chachamim respond, \"No, that's not true 11:22 because sometimes, sometimes ultimately again shechita could do more for a part of the that's not attached to the mother than is attached to the mother.\" What's the raya to that? 11:33 The raya to that is if you reach inside of the mother and detach fetal pieces, then you shecht the mother, the fetal pieces are permitted. 11:39 But if you reach inside the mother and cut off a piece of the spleen or cut off a piece of the kidneys, that's eiver min hachai. 11:43 Now fine, so that's the exchange which doesn't make much sense. 11:46 Now the Gemara says mai ka'amri, what is being said over here? 11:49 Here we go. אמר רבא ואמרי לה כדי. 11:53 So Rava said, others say kedei means it's without attribution. 12:00 חיסורי מחסרא והכי קתני. Rabosai best words in shas, חיסורי מחסרא. 12:03 It's like getting to the bottom of the cereal box and finding the decoder ring. 12:07 You knew it was in there the whole time, you didn't know what it was going to be, but now you got it, you feel like you just chisuri mechsara means okay, there's more, there's more, there's more. 12:14 But wait, there is more. 12:16 So here we go. 12:16 חיסורי מחסרא והכי קתני. We're missing a piece. 12:18 Here's how you have to read the braisa. 12:20 אמר להם רבי מאיר. Rabbi Meir responds back to the chachamim. 12:24 וכי מי תטהרו לאבר זה מידי נבילה. So this is Rabbi Meir talking to the chachamim. Chachamim, according to you, what goes ahead and will prevent this extended limb from becoming tamei with tumas neveila? 12:39 What purifies it from tumas neveila? 12:42 So the Gemara says shechitas imo. 12:43 It is the shechita, according to you again remember this is Rabbi Meir talking to the chachamim, according to you chachamim, what prevents the limb from becoming a neveila is the shechita of the mother. 12:52 Well if the shechita of the mother works to make it not a neveila, then ultimately again אם כן תתירהו באכילה, then just say that the shechita of the mother permits the extended limb in consumption altogether. 13:03 Amru lo, the chachamim responded back to Rabbi Meir, treifa tochiach. 13:06 No, not necessarily. Take a classic case of treifa. 13:13 What's the classic case of treifa? 13:15 An animal is a treifa and yet when you shecht it shechita will work in order to prevent it from becoming tamei like a tumas like a neveila. Ve'einah matiratah be'achila but does not permit it for consumption. 13:29 So the point that the chachamim are making is that shechita is not all or nothing. 13:34 That sometimes you could have a case of shechita which will not permit the item for consumption but absolutely does work in some beneficial way. 13:44 Okay. Amar lahem, to which Rabbi Meir responded, אמר להם רבי מאיר says to them, lo, אם טיהרה שחיטת טריפה אותה דבר שהוא גופה. 13:53 Here's the difference. The difference is that when you shecht the treifa, I understand why that works. 13:59 Why? Because the shechita is being done on the animal itself. 14:04 You have an animal that's a treifa, you're subjecting that very same animal to a process of shechita. 14:10 That's why that process ultimately again has the ability to remove it from tumas neveila. 14:14 תטהר את האבר דבר שאינו גופה. But why would that shechita work on an extended limb? 14:21 That extended limb of the fetus is no longer essentially no longer part of the mother. 14:27 So why would halacha le-ma'aseh, why would the shechita of the mother work for that extended limb? 14:35 Okay, good kasha. Now the chachamim respond back to Rabbi Meir. Amru lo, they say back to Rabbi Meir, \"Hold up, we're going to show you how sometimes the shechita of the mother actually does more for parts of the animal that are not parts of 14:51 the mother than for parts of the animal that are part of the mother.\" Amru lo Gufa yoseir migufa. 14:59 Sometimes shechita can actually do more things for parts of the mother that are not I should say for parts of the animal that are not part of the mother than more than for parts of the animal that are part of 15:08 the mother. How do we see this? 15:09 She-shanu חותך מן העובר שבמעיה because rabosai and if you extend your hand into the mother and go ahead and cut off fetal pieces after you shacht the mother mutar ba-achila. 15:20 Those fetal pieces are fit for consumption. 15:23 On the other hand מן הטחול ומן הכליות if you cut off a piece of the spleen or you cut off a piece of the kidneys asur ba-achila ultimately eilu be asur ba-achila. 15:32 So what do you see from here? 15:33 That sometimes ultimately again shechita of the mother can actually affect greater change on parts of the or pieces that are not actually part of the mother versus parts that are a part of the mother. 15:46 So therefore the Chachamim are saying over here that halacha le-ma'aseh therefore again rabosai come full circle. 15:51 The Chachamim will say that's why we hold that when you shacht the mother what that actually does is the piece of the fetus that was extended prior to the shechita ultimately again will be removed from the status of neveila and 16:04 ultimately or I should say will not become neveila but will be treated like treifa shechuta. 16:09 Incredible. Is the spleen and kidney from the ubar or from the mother? 16:13 Mother. Two different cases. 16:14 The spleen and kidney cases nothing to do with the ubar. 16:16 He's just he's making a contrast. 16:18 If you were to go ahead and cut off a piece of the ubar inside of the mother and then you shacht the mother those pieces are totally permitted. 16:24 But you go ahead non-pregnant cow or a pregnant cow doesn't make a difference. 16:27 The mother itself you cut off pieces of the kidneys or the spleen that's eiver min ha-chai on the mother. 16:33 On the mother. So tanya idach braisa that supports this. 16:35 Amar Rabbi Meir, Meir says וכי מי טהרו לאבר זה מדין נבלה? 16:39 Rabbi Meir said to the Chachamim, right, Rabbi Meir said to the Chachamim, Chachamim according to you what will ultimately again make what will remove the neveila status from this extended limb? 16:51 אמרו לו שחיטת אמו. First word in rabosai. 16:54 The Chachamim respond the shechita of the mother. 16:57 To which Rabbi Meir responds אם כן תתירנו באכילה. 17:01 If that's case that shechita is so powerful then ultimately again then you should go ahead and permit the extended limb in consumption. 17:09 אמרו לו טרפה תוכיח. So rabosai same conversation. 17:13 The Chachamim responded back treifa will prove that that is not correct. 17:15 Why? ששחיטתו מטהרתו מדין נבלה ואינו מטהרתו ואינו מתירתו באכילה. The Chachamim show because again shechita's not an all or nothing. 17:24 There are cases where shechita will not permit something for consumption but will still affect positive change. 17:31 What's the example of that? 17:33 The example of that is the shechita of a treifa whereas that shechita will remove tumas neveila or prevent tumas neveila but ultimately it does not work for consumption. 17:41 Amar lahem so Rabbi Meir says back to them אם טיהרה שחיטת טרפה אותה ואת האבר המדולדל בה דבר שבגופה. 17:49 Rabbi Meir said like this. 17:50 Rabbi Meir says one second. 17:53 I understand how you can tell me that the shechita of the mother ultimately again could help if the mother itself is a treifa or if the mother itself has a dangling limb. 18:03 Right we'll talk about the dangling limb of the animal on amud beis. 18:06 Because why? Because then the actual shechita is helping to affect change in the body of the animal itself. 18:13 ותטהר את העובר שאינו גופה? But why should the shechita of the mother help for an extended limb of the fetus which is not which is no longer part of the mother? 18:25 To once again amru lo the Chachamim respond back to Rabbi Meir הרבה מצלת על שאינו גופה יותר מגופה. 18:33 Sometimes amazingly enough the shechita of the mother could impact more on things that are not actually part of the mother's body more than things that are part of the mother's body. 18:42 How do we see this? 18:44 She-harei shananu חותך מן העובר שבמעיה מותר באכילה that if halacha le-ma'aseh you go ahead and right you reach into the mother and detach fetal pieces and subsequently shacht the mother those detached fetal pieces are permitted for consumption. 18:59 Also the mother. Yet מן הטחול ומן הכליות yet if you reach just into an animal and again detach pieces of the spleen or of the kidneys even if you subsequently shacht the mother those detached parts are prohibited als eiver min ha-chai. 19:15 Okay. So rabosai so this is our fundamental machlokes Rabbi Meir and the Chachamim. 19:19 So one more time what's the case? 19:21 I have a pregnant animal. 19:22 While the animal mother is alive fetus extends its foreleg. 19:26 That foreleg is just out there dangling. 19:29 Then what happens? Shacht the mother. 19:31 So rabosai what let's go with what everybody agrees with right it's almost the nine days we have to focus on what we agree on. 19:36 So what does everybody agree on? 19:38 What does everybody agree on? 19:39 What does everybody agree on? 19:42 Right that you can't eat the extended limb. 19:46 Right everybody agrees with that you can't eat the extended limb. 19:49 What's the machlokes? The machlokes is what is the status of the extended limb? 19:54 Rabbi Meir neveila. Rebbi Meir, neveila. Chachomim, it has the status of treifa shechuta. 20:02 They're gonna both say what's the nafka mina? 20:04 what's it you'll say to yourself who cares? 20:06 Either way you can't eat it, it makes a difference. 20:08 Why does it make a big difference? 20:09 Because according to Rebbi Meir, because it's neveila, it can convey tuma to the rest of the uber. 20:14 And therefore the uber is not fit for consumption. 20:16 But ultimately again according to the Chachomim, treifa shechuta really does not convey tuma, it only conveys tuma in a specific case of kodshin and even that's midrabanan. 20:26 So I say that is our fundamental machlokes that we are left with. 20:30 Now again I say I have good news and bad news. 20:34 The good news is I love you, right? 20:36 That's the good news, right? 20:38 The bad news is the bad news is that ultimately again we're not gonna get resolution on this today, but that's okay because this is a fantastic exercise in successful living. 20:48 You have to learn how to live with unresolved issues for some extended amount of time. 20:54 That is the way, so I'm telling you now, settle into the existential anxiety of unresolved issues. 21:00 The good news is I promise you we're gonna get resolution, we're gonna get halacha l'maise, but it is not coming today. 21:07 Okay, you got that? 21:08 Deep breath, we got this together but yes today is going to be a day of unresolved talmudic anxiety. 21:14 Okay so just and again we're going to build on it a little bit more, we're going to get through it together, we're not solving the problem today, we're going to amplify the problem today but resolution is going to come tomorrow. 21:25 Let's go veiter. Amar Shimon Lokish. Resh Lokish says, I say five lines up from the bottom. 21:30 Five lines up from the bottom. 21:31 Amar Shimon Lokish, אמר רב שמעון לקיש, כמחלוקת בעוברים כך מחלוקת באיברים. Okay so I say so now we are transitioning a little bit over here. 21:41 Resh Lokish says like this, the same way we have machlokes Rebbi Meir and the Chachomim by a fetus, in other words when we say fetus remember we're talking about the case of the fetus that extended its foreleg outside of the mother prior to 21:52 shechita, now you shechted the mother, what's the status of that limb? 21:57 So Resh Lokish says the same way we have machlokes by the extended limb of the fetus, kemachlokes be'eivarim. 22:05 So I say this is very interesting. 22:06 The machlokes also applies if the animal itself has a dangling limb. 22:12 Let's say you have an animal, just no pregnancy right now, you have an animal that has a dangling limb and in a way by the way that it is not going to become reattached, in other words there's no possibility of 22:22 healing over here, this limb is not going to get reattached. 22:25 So look at Rashi's kemachlokes be'eiver, you see that? 22:30 המדולדל דבבהמה דרבי מאיר אין שחיטתה מטהרתה ורבנן שחיטתה מטהרתה. So I say Resh Lokish is like this: the same way the Rebbi Meir and the Chachomim disagree by the extended limb of an uber, they also agree if the animal itself has a dangling limb. 22:44 So I say so what's the case? 22:46 Animal has a dangling limb, right? 22:47 So just hanging off there, not going to reattach itself. 22:50 Rebbi Meir says when you shecht that animal, that dangling limb has the status of neveila, status of neveila. 22:56 The Chachomim say no it has the status of treifa shechuta, which essentially means that it's tahor. 23:02 Again, seems like everybody's agreeing can't eat it and again we'll discuss why you can't eat a dangling limb of an animal that you shecht, right? 23:10 But for same machlokes. Rebbi Yochanan disagrees, Rebbi Yochanan says no, רבי יוחנן אמר מחלוקת באבר דעובר, not true, or true, the machlokes is in the case of an extended limb of the uber, that's our mishna, aval be'eiver debeheima, but when the animal itself has a dangling limb, דברי הכל שחיטה עושה ניפול. 23:30 Everyone agrees that again shechita creates detachment. 23:34 Now what does that mean? 23:36 Osa nipol, Rashi says בשעת שחיטה הרי היא כנפולה ממנה ואין שחיטתה מועלת לה ומשום נשתוה דקרא דיליפנא בסמוך. 23:44 Listen to this. So ultimately again Rebbi Yochanan says that when it comes to a dangling limb, everyone agrees that at the time of shechita, shechita essentially makes the dangling limb as if it is detached, totally detached. 23:58 It's not attached to the animal at all, obviously can't eat it but not attached to the animal at all. 24:03 So I say fundamental machlokes Resh Lokish and Rebbi Yochanan, right? 24:06 Remember again everyone agrees the machlokes Rebbi Meir and the Chachomim in the mishna because that's in the mishna. 24:12 The shaileh just is, does the machlokes Rebbi Meir and the rabanan also apply to a dangling limb or not? 24:18 Resh Lokish says yes, Rebbi Yochanan says no. 24:21 Let's analyze. אמר רבי יוסי בר חנינא מאי טעמא דרבי יוחנן אליבא דרבנן? So I say now let's go back, so Rebbi Yochanan according to the rabanan, right? 24:31 He will hold that halacha l'maise, that halacha l'maise what? 24:34 What's his according to the rabanan? 24:35 האי אית לה תקנתא בחזרה והאי לית לה תקנתא בחזרה. There's a fundamental distinction. 24:41 What's the distinction? In the case of the uber, that is a rectifiable case. 24:46 How's it rectifiable? How's it rectifiable? 24:48 Technically speaking the uber could retract, right? 24:51 Technically. In the case of the dangling limb, this is an irreversible situation. 24:56 So Gemara is kashye mesivei. Amar Rabbi Meir. 25:00 So Rabbi Meir said, אם לא טיהרה שחיטת טריפה אותה ואת אבר המדולדל בה דבר שבגופה, right? 25:07 We've also quoted before Rabbi Meir said, right, in general, if you go ahead and you shecht a treifa, so shechting the treifa itself, a treifa is an animal that's a treifa, if you shecht a treifa animal itself, what happens? 25:20 That has the ability to ensure that the animal itself is tahor and a dangling limb. 25:26 Why? Because halacha l'maiseh these are matters of the animal's body itself. 25:30 So raboisai, so what's the point over here? 25:32 You see explicitly, explicitly Rabbi Meir says that shechita of the mother, right, shechita of an animal does take away any potential tuma status of a dangling limb. 25:42 וטהרה עובר דבר שאינו גופו, so again raboisai, ultimately again, so that's the... 25:46 but the point over here is you see the braisa says explicitly that Rabbi Meir holds that halacha l'maiseh shechita of the animal ultimately again does is mitaher the dangling limb. 25:57 Amud bais, so b'shlama, b'shlama to רבי שמעון בן לקיש לדיבריהם קאמר להו. 26:03 So according to Reish Lakish, the way to the way to understand this exchange is that ultimately again Rabbi Meir is talking to the Chachamim. 26:10 And what is he saying? 26:11 Raboisai, 73B, second line. 26:13 לדידי לא שנא אבר דעובר ולא שנא אבר דבהמה. So Rabbi Meir would say this: According to me, there is no distinction ultimately again between the limb of an uber and the dangling limb of an animal. 26:26 There's no distinction between those two. 26:29 They are halachically they are halachically essentially the same. 26:32 Kedadininu. אלא לרבי יוחנן קשיא. But according to Rabbi Yochanan ultimately again how to understand this particular braisa is going to be difficult. 26:40 אלא אי איתמר הכי איתמר. Rather Gemara says, You're right. 26:43 If you want to frame it here, so you have to frame it. 26:45 אמר רבי שמעון בן לקיש. Reish Lakish says like this: כמחלוקת בעוברין כך מחלוקת בבהמה. 26:50 Reish Lakish will say like this: The same way that Rabbi Meir and the Chachamim disagree by the extended limb of a fetus, so too they also have a machlokes by a dangling limb of an animal. 27:02 Okay. Ve'Rabbi Yochanan Rabbi Yochanan will say, רבי יוחנן אמר מחלוקת באבר דעובר, no, the machlokes ultimately is only by the extended limb of an uber. 27:15 אבל באבר דבהמה דברי הכל אין שחיטה עושה ניפול. Everyone agrees that ultimately shechita does not create detachment. 27:26 It does not create detachment. 27:27 That even with shechita, the limb is still considered as if it is part of the animal. 27:32 Rashi says over here, אין שחיטה עושה ניפול וטהר מלטמא אף על פי שאסורה באכילה. 27:39 And raboisai, what that means is it's part of the animal. 27:41 Now, you can't eat it. 27:42 You can't eat it because b'peshitas what it sounds like over here is you can't eat it because since it's we're going to see this in tomorrow's daf, but what it sounds like over here since it's mostly detached, it's considered to 27:54 be as if it's detached. 27:55 If it's detached, then what's its status? 27:58 Almost like an ever min hachai. 28:00 The problem is if it's ever min hachai, why doesn't it convey tuma? 28:02 So like - but like I said, we'll get to that in tomorrow's daf. 28:05 But in this version over here Rabbi Yochanan says everyone agrees that when it comes to the dangling limb of an animal, it does not create detachment, eino oseh nipul, and therefore again it is you can't eat it, but it does not convey tuma. 28:19 אמר רבי יוסי בר חנינא. So Rabbi Yosi Bar Chanina says like this: מאי טעמא דרבי יוחנן אליבא דרבי מאיר? 28:25 So ultimately again what is Rabbi Yochanan's logic according to Rabbi Meir? 28:28 He says, Listen to this: האי גופא והאי לאו גופא. 28:32 It's very simple. Ultimately again according to Rabbi Meir there's a big distinction. 28:36 The dangling limb is part of the body of the animal. 28:40 The extended limb of the fetus is not. 28:44 Hence, the fundamental distinction. 28:48 Okay, so Gemara says as follows. 28:49 אמר רבי יצחק בר יוסף אמר רבי יוחנן: הכל מודים שמיתה עושה ניפול ואין שחיטה עושה ניפול. So raboisai, this is very interesting. 28:57 So Rabbi Yitzchak Bar Yosef comes along and in the name of Rabbi Yochanan he says as follows: Everyone agrees that misa, if the animal just dies on its own, it is considered and the animal dies and there's a dangling limb, it is considered as 29:09 if death essentially severs the limb. 29:12 Severs the limb. Good. 29:14 Gemara says, so misa oseh nipul, ultimately again, ואין שחיטה עושה ניפול. 29:19 But ultimately shechita does not create automatic detachment of the limb. 29:24 Now take - take a look at Rashi for just a moment. 29:26 שמיתה עושה ניפול אבר המדולדל בבהמה. So raboisai, it's almost right across in Rashi. 29:31 אבר המדולדל בבהמה. So same case. 29:34 You have an animal with a dangling limb. 29:38 ומתה המיתה מפלת אותו ואינו טמא כאבר מן הנבלה אלא כאבר מן החי. So raboisai, it's very interesting. 29:48 So what does that do? 29:49 So what does that do? 29:50 So now, if you say that misa oseh nipul what that means is as soon as the animal dies ultimately again it is as if that the limb has become detached. 29:58 Now ultimately again also now what that means is the limb is not considered to be the limb of a neveila, rather it's considered to be ever min ha-chai. Ever min ha-chai. 30:08 Okay. So the Gemara says ובהפרש שביניהם דאמינא בא בר אדא ever min ha-chai בשר הפורש ממנו טהור דלא מטמי אלא כשהוא איבר שלם בשר גידים ועצמות אבל נבילה כזית מנבילה. 30:19 So this is very interesting. 30:20 Rabbi Yitzchak bar Yosef wants to posit the following: When we say misa osa nipul what that means is literally almost like at the moment of death before death becomes final, the limb is considered to be detached, which means that limb is ever min ha-chai. 30:36 As opposed to if you say מיתה אינו עושה ניפול, then the limb, the dangling limb, would be neveila. 30:42 What's now you'll say to yourself, who cares? 30:43 Either way it's tamei. 30:45 There's a big difference, Rashi points out. 30:46 When it comes to ever min ha-chai, ever min ha-chai only conveys tuma if the entire limb is intact. 30:54 Neveila on the other hand conveys tuma even if you just have a kezayis of neveila. 31:00 So a fascinating distinction. 31:01 So therefore watch this, so one more time. 31:03 So Rabbi Yitzchak bar Yosef in the name of Rabbi Yochanan, that everyone agrees that if an animal has a dangling limb and the animal dies, misa osa nipul. 31:12 That literally again almost like at the moment of death, it really means right before the moment of death, or at the beginning of the moment of death, the limb is as if it's detached, which means the limb is ever min ha-chai. Ever min ha-chai, which 31:26 now we know is good news because it only conveys tuma if the limb itself is fully intact. 31:32 However, however, אין שחיטה עושה ניפול. Shechita does not create detachment, which would seem to me now according to this what that would mean is that what? 31:41 If you have a dangling limb, sounds like what's the status of the limb, what's the status of the limb? 31:46 Neveila. That's what it sounds like, it's neveila. 31:49 Okay. Bemai askinan. Gemara says first of all what case are you dealing with over here? 31:54 Elima be-ever de-ubar. If we're talking about the extended limb of a fetus, miflag pligi. 32:00 That's a machlokes. That's a machlokes in the Mishna. 32:03 Ela be-ever de-behema. Rather what are we talking about over here? 32:06 We're talking about again, no no no, dangling limb is not the limb of the fetus, rather dangling limb is the limb of the animal itself. 32:14 So the Gemara, ela be-ever de-behema. 32:17 If that's the case, מיתה תנינא שחיטה תנינא. 32:20 We have learned both of these halachos already. 32:23 What did we learn? 32:23 Here we go. So the Gemara says misa tanina. 32:26 We learned that ultimately again, when the animal dies, death creates severance. 32:32 That's what it means misa osa nipul. 32:34 Death creates severance of the dangling limb. 32:37 Because where do we learn this? 32:38 So the Gemara says mesa ha-behema. 32:40 If the animal dies, ha-basar tzarich hechsher. 32:44 Ultimately for the meat, for the meat to become receptive to tuma, it requires contact with a liquid because remember again once an animal dies it becomes food. 32:52 Right, once it becomes food it becomes huchshar lekabel tuma, but again anything only only becomes receptive to tuma when if it comes in contact with a liquid. 32:59 והאיבר מטמא משום אבר מן החי. And the limb itself, the limb itself is tamei as ever min ha-chai. 33:04 ואינו מטמא משום אבר מן הנבילה, but ultimately again it is not considered to be limb of a neveila. Divrei Rabbi Meir. 33:13 So again that's misa osa nipul. 33:15 That literally again when an animal dies at like that moment where death begins, the limb is considered severed, in which case again it is considered to be ever min ha-chai, not אבר מן הנבילה. 33:28 Okay. That's Rabbi Meir. 33:29 Shechita nami tanina. So point the Gemara is making is we learned this already. 33:33 Shechita nami tanina. We learned about shechita as well. 33:35 What did we learn about shechita? Nishcheta behema. 33:39 If the animal was shechted, הוכשרה בדמיה דברי רבי מאיר. 33:42 So it's very interesting. 33:44 Rabbi Meir holds that halacha l'maaseh this is very interesting, that when you shecht an animal, the meat itself is automatically ready to lekabel tuma. 33:52 Why? But where was the hechsher? 33:53 The hechsher of the meat actually occurs when, with the very blood of the animal. 33:58 In other words once you shecht it, the meat comes in contact with blood, with blood, that blood makes it raui lekabel tuma. 34:06 Rashi says over here, if you look in Rashi it's the third wide line הוכשרו בדמיה לקבל טומאת אוכלין אמה סבירא ליה א בהן טומאת עצמן כאבר מן החי דשחיטה הועילה להם אפילו לרבי מאיר. 34:19 So therefore if you shecht animal nishcheta behema הוכשרה בדמיה דברי רבי מאיר. 34:23 V'Rabbi Shimon omer. Rabbi Shimon says lo huchshara. 34:27 Rabbi Shimon says ultimately again not true, it does not huchshar. 34:30 It is not huchshar. 34:31 Rashi says here: לא הוכשרה וצריכין הכשר אחר לקבל טומאה דקסבר אין בהמה נעשית יד לאבר להביא קודם. 34:39 It's a fundamental machlokes. 34:40 To which the Gemara says im mei-ha. 34:42 Point over here the Gemara is saying is we already learned this. 34:45 We already learned from braisa number one that misa osa nipul. 34:52 That ultimately again death creates detachment of the dangling limb. 34:56 And we learned in the second braisa that ultimately what? 34:59 Shechita does not create nippel, does not create detachment. 35:03 So we learned this already, to which the Gemara says I'll tell you here's a difference. 35:06 Ime hachi, if it would have just been from that case, from that braisa, הוה אמינא מאי הוכשרו? 35:13 I would have thought when it says ultimately again what has been fit, right, what has been made huchshar lekabel tumah? Abasar. 35:20 Perhaps that's talking about dangling flesh. 35:22 Lav davka, lav davka dangling limb, but rather dangling flesh. 35:26 והא בהו הוכשרו קתני. But it says they are huchshar plural. 35:31 To which the Gemara says mah tomar, what would you have thought? 35:33 חד לבשר הפורש מן הבהמה וחד לבשר הפורש מן האיבר. I would have thought one is talking about again flesh which became detached from the behemah and one is talking about flesh which became detached from a limb. 35:47 ומאי מי דהאי? But why would I think that meat that becomes detached from a limb would be any stronger? 35:51 סלקא דעתך אמינא הואיל ומטמא חומרא אגב אביו. And also here's a difference. 35:57 I would have thought that when the flesh comes from the limb, that's a stronger tumah why? 36:01 Because that limb was subject to eiver min hachai and therefore perhaps that flesh has a stronger affinity towards tumah. 36:08 אימא לא תיבעי הכשר? Perhaps it doesn't require any subsequent hechsher. Ka mashma lan that it does. 36:15 Okay, incredible. Amar Rav Yosef, נקט דרבי יצחק בר יוסף בידך. 36:20 To what's see now watch this just do this last section for today and then we'll stop over here. 36:24 So listen to this rabosai. 36:25 So Rav Yosef says the following. 36:27 He says take this statement of Rav Yitzchak bar Yosef and hold onto it closely. 36:30 And again rabosai, what did Rav Yitzchak bar Yosef say? 36:32 Rav Yitzchak bar Yosef said that הכל מודה שמיתה עושה ניפול ואין שחיטה עושה ניפול. 36:39 This is Rav Yitzchak bar Yosef's s'varah. His s'varah was that when an animal dies, if there's a dangling limb, death or really better stated the beginning of death creates detachment. 36:49 So that dangling limb is considered to be what? 36:51 Eiver min hachai, not neveilah. Not neveilah. 36:56 However shechita does not create nippel. Shechita does not create detachment. 37:01 Okay. So Rav Yosef says hold onto the shittah of Rav Yitzchak bar Yosef. 37:04 Why? דרבה בר בר חנה קאי כוותיה. Because Rabbah bar bar Chana holds like him. 37:09 Where do we see that? 37:10 Detanya, let's see rabosai very interesting. 37:11 ובשר בשדה טרפה לא תאכלו. The pasuk says that again rabosai now this is normally the pasuk that teaches us treifah. 37:19 You find basar basadeh, which the poshet p'shat of the pasuk is that you find an animal that it looks like it's been killed by another animal out in the field. 37:28 Treifah lo socheilu. So Gemara says what does this come to include? 37:31 Rabosai, what does this come to include? 37:42 This comes to include ultimately again an animal that even if you shechted the animal, but if the animal has either a dangling limb or dangling flesh, that even though you subject the animal to a proper shechita and the rest of 37:54 the animal is going to be kosher, you cannot eat the dangling limb and you cannot eat the dangling flesh. 38:02 Incredible. So the Gemara says halachah l'ma'aseh, halachah l'ma'aseh. 38:06 This is included over here. 38:08 The Gemara says shehein asurin, shehein asurin. 38:10 So rabosai, so this now again I want to what I want to point out what we're missing in this conversation is why? 38:17 Right, we haven't seen the why. 38:18 That's in tomorrow's daf. 38:19 So again rabosai, what's fascinating about this over here is the Gemara seems to be indicating that halachah l'ma'aseh, halachah l'ma'aseh, even if you properly shecht an animal but that animal has a dangling limb or dangling flesh, that halachah l'ma'aseh you can't that you cannot 38:34 eat that dangling limb or dangling flesh. 38:36 Why? We don't know yet, but the Gemara ultimately again is now yeah, and the Gemara the Gemara is going ahead and learning this out from ובשר בשדה טרפה לא תאכלו. ואמר רבה בר בר חנה one more loi, Rabbah bar bar Chana, Rabbah bar bar Chana said amar Rabbi Yochanan rabosai top of ayin daled, אין בהם אלא מצות פרישה בלבד. 38:54 Now again rabosai, interestingly enough, so now I know that if I shecht an animal, proper shechita, and the animal has a dangling limb or dangling flesh, I can't eat that limb and I can't eat that flesh. 39:07 But rabosai then the Gemara also adds and by the way, there is no איסור אבר מן החי. 39:14 Right? It's not right but rather again rabosai, there is just a din d'rabbanan that you can't eat these animals. 39:19 Rabosai, so totally reframing it now. 39:21 Because we thought before that the whole discussion was about a dangling limb fits into one of two categories. 39:26 Either it's what, either it's what? 39:28 Eiver min hachai or neveilah. What it sounds like over here the Gemara says now sounds like what the Gemara is saying over here now according to Rav Yosef, right, or I should say according to Rabbah bar bar Chana is that halachah l'ma'aseh you shecht an animal, it 39:43 has a dangling limb, it has dangling flesh, the animal is kosher, you cannot eat the limb, dangling limb can't eat the dangling flesh. 39:49 Why? Because again Rashi says אין בהם אלא מצות פרישה בלבד. 39:53 Look at Rashi, top of Rashi 74a, ein bahem. 39:56 איסור לאו של אבר מן החי. There is no prohibition of eiver min hachai on this. 40:02 So what is there? 40:03 אלא מצות פרישה בעלמא מדרבנן וקרא אסמכתא בעלמא אלמא אין שחיטה עושה ניפול. So rabbosai, what do you see from here? 40:12 What you see from here is essentially a dangling limb and dangling flesh is what? 40:17 Part of the animal. 40:18 It's part of the animal, right? 40:20 Shechita does not create nippul. Shechita does not create detachment. 40:23 It's part of the animal. 40:24 So why can't you eat it? 40:25 We're not sure. We're not sure, but midoireisa you should be able to eat it, miderabbanan you're not allowed to eat it. 40:33 I the Gemara quoted the pasuk ובשר בשדה טרפה לא תאכלו, and rabbosai, this is part of the previous-previously expressed motif. 40:39 Remember, what does basadeh mean? 40:40 Remember last week we saw what does basadeh mean? 40:42 Basadeh means anything outside of its permitted or or normative boundary. 40:46 So when you have like a dangling limb or dangling piece of flesh, that's like basadeh. 40:51 It's outside of its normal purview, right? 40:53 It normally should be attached to the animal. 40:54 So because it's outside of its normal purview, you can't eat it, but that is not a biblical prohibition. 40:58 Ultimately, again, that is quote-unquote only a rabbinic prohibition. 41:01 So you have to detach it, you can't eat it, but ultimately, technically midoireisa still part of the animal. 41:05 Okay rabbosai, so what are we left with? 41:07 What are we left with? 41:08 So first of all, first of all, we still need resolution. 41:11 I'm just telling right, remember today you've accepted the reality that today is not a day of answers. 41:16 Today is a day of questions, but we're good. 41:18 We can live with that. 41:19 We can move forward with that. 41:20 So let's let's crystallize and concretize our open-ended questions for today. 41:25 Number one, machlokes Rabbi Meir and the Rabbanan in the mishna. 41:29 Right? This is where this all started. 41:31 I have I have an animal, the animal has an ubar, a pregnant animal. 41:34 The ubar extends its foreleg while the mother is still alive. 41:37 I shacht the animal with the extended foreleg. 41:40 What's the status of the foreleg? 41:42 Rabbi Meir, that foreleg is neveila and then presumably is metamei something else. 41:47 Whether it's metamei the mother or the ubar, we'll have to see. 41:49 Chachamim, no, that extended foreleg has a status of treifa shechuta, which essentially means that's what? 41:56 It means that what? 41:57 Can't eat it, but baruch Hashem doesn't have an impact on the rest of the animal. 42:01 How do we pasken there? 42:02 That's a machlokes. That's a machlokes. 42:04 And again rabbosai, what that machlokes did is it essentially opened up, it opened up ultimately again a totally not a totally different topic, but an adjacent topic. 42:16 And what's the adjacent topic? 42:17 What's the adjacent topic to extended fetal limbs? 42:21 The adjacent topic is dangling limbs, dangling flesh, right? 42:26 What is the status if you have a regular kosher animal? 42:29 No pregnancy over here, right? 42:30 No pregnancy over here, right? 42:32 Just a dangling limb or dangling flesh. 42:34 Is that considered to be part of the animal or not? 42:37 So that's what's called shechita oseh nippul or אין שחיטה עושה ניפול. 42:42 When you shacht the animal, is the dangling limb viewed as attached, unattached? 42:47 The adjacent to the adjacent is what about misa? 42:50 What about general death of the animal? 42:52 What does death of an animal do to a dangling limb as well? 42:55 So rabbosai, resolution to all three of those issues, which are all adjacent to one another, im yirtzeh Hashem tomorrow. 43:01 Rabbosai, yashar koach, incredible. Have a great day everyone.
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